Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

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GTS-Peter
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#76 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Do 10. Jun 2021, 07:03

Hi Rob,

I did also tests with a modded Airbox and yes, the mixture measured was leaner but more around 13, turning into the 12-region at higher rpm and 100% load - even with akrapovic exhaust and modded Airbox.

Adding this sensors for my project was really the best thing to do as it gives me the advantage to see what the modifications really leading to and with the Forcemaster3 or the Polini module, I'll be able to adjust the fuelling back to values of the engines best health and performance.

Measuring the AFR so close to the rear outlet of the exhaust is difficult because there is a risk of measuring too lean mixture as the exhaust Gases get may mixed with fresh air at this position depending on how the sensor is puttet in detail and if the exhaust is mounted 100% gas sealed. That's why the o2 sensors are mounted more close to the cylinderhead usually.

Don't get me wrong, it's possible that the AFR measured is correct. I just want to tell you that there is a risk of measuring too lean mixture if it's measured this way.
Ölwanne mit Schauglas für GTS 300 und HPE?

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zirri01
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Vespa: 300GTS
Land: Österreich
Wohnort: Gleisdorf / Stmk

Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#77 Beitrag von zirri01 » Do 10. Jun 2021, 09:06

Hi Rob

To get 22.8BHP on the rear wheel with these minimal changes is not possible. I assume a maximum of about 1.5 BHP more power than standard. Real with your modifications about 20 - 20.5 BHP at the rear wheel. Again a typical example that the tuner does not have his dyno under control, sorry.
I don't want to reduce your modifications with my answer. Bigger changes are required to get real 23BHP on the rearwheel.

As already described before by GTS01, "only" a shortening of the suction hose (sharp edge) without a funnel reduce the air flow and the engine performance.

Regards zirri01

Rob12395
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
Land: Netherlands

Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#78 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Do 10. Jun 2021, 18:43

Zirri/gts-peter, hard to say they do alot of dyno’s and doing this for like 15 years also with another vespa so i believe they know what they’re doing, but yea cant be sure maybe i will do a dyno somewhere else also. Looking at the diagram from vespa motorsport original hpe makes 19hp, so yea 3,8 more hp almost 20 procent is alot(maybe to much😒)

GTS-Peter
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#79 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Do 10. Jun 2021, 21:37

It's always the same problem if you don't do the first Dyno run with the untouched engine. If you don't know what power output you come from, you never know what you achieved.

But if you want to take it serious, you can get this Zeitronix lambda tool. The wideband o2 sensor can be exchanged with the original Vespa o2 sensor and the Zeitronix loops the signal through to the ECU so that both computers can work with the signal coming from only one O2 sensor. This is a real advantage but I have to admit that I never tested it on my own so the above written about the Zeitronix is just the theory I read.

I have got other tools that work for me so I am not so curious about the Zeitronix.

With this measurements you'll be able to adjust the fuelling via the Forcemaster3 to best performance values.
Ölwanne mit Schauglas für GTS 300 und HPE?

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Rob12395
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#80 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Do 10. Jun 2021, 23:22

Yea would be better if i did a original run.

Isnt there any tool that you can plug in to the vespa that reads this sort of things out like the lambda values becouse this is all stored in the ecu i guess. Obd/can-bus(cant find it myself)

Its not possible to take the signal from the original lamda, run a cable to a simple digital meter? Looking at zeitronix its a bit vague.

I guess without looking at the a/f ratio you indeed cant really get result with the malossi forcemaster or tune it wright.

GTS-Peter
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#81 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Fr 11. Jun 2021, 13:41

The original O2 sensor is only able to measure on a low rate. Like once a second. The wideband O2 sensors are much more precise. Some also call them "high speed sensor"

As I said, the Zeitronix seem to be a good tool. If the product description is correct, you can loop the signal through to the ECU.
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stefko22
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Vespa: GTS 300 FL / 300 HPE
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#82 Beitrag von stefko22 » Fr 11. Jun 2021, 16:27

It's working. I definitely can recommend the zeitronix tool.

And yes, it can calculate a small band lambda value out of the wideband signal it gets from its wideband lambda sensor.

As Peter already wrote, it can loop it through to the small band signal pin on your ECU.

Gesendet von meinem LYA-L09 mit Tapatalk


Rob12395
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#83 Beitrag von Rob12395 » So 13. Jun 2021, 10:54

What zeitronix tool are you guys precisely talking about(link?) becouse the site of zeitronix is not really easy to read/understand.

Gts-peter did you use 4.2 or 4.9 bosch lambda and is this plug and play? And i guess there is one or 2 cables you can take the signal of and run it to a digital meter or something.

Rob12395
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
Land: Netherlands

Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#84 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Di 15. Jun 2021, 17:09

I’m a bit on the cheap tour and found the following(would rather have a small digital meter but cant find it)

Lambda
https://a.aliexpress.com/_uyab4B

Meter
https://a.aliexpress.com/_vKTxyP
Or
https://a.aliexpress.com/_uyUvCr

Also somethings else when i look at the exhuast pipe at the engine side the thing around it to secure it, looks bend.(picture attached) Is this the same with you guys or could it be possible false air goes into the pipe now?
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#85 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Di 15. Jun 2021, 20:49

What I learned on four stoke tuning is that most cheap stuff is worth nothing g and expensive is no guarantee for good results. Pretty unpredictable if you're not willed to get really deep with it.

I wouldn't buy this stuff. The gauges maybe but definitely not the o2 sensors. I don't know but there must be more reasons behind the fact that an original BOSCH o2 wideband sensor costs almost 10 times of an Aliexpress version.

Maybe you need to buy 5 or 10 sensors to find one that's working properly.

I would rather sell the Remus exhaust, buy an akrapovic and invest in a proper o2 tool and a Malossi Forcemaster3. Of cause both investments just make sense if you want to rebuild the engine or at least continue your work on the airbox and CVT setup.

Edit :don't worry about the manifold flange.
Ölwanne mit Schauglas für GTS 300 und HPE?

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Rob12395
Beiträge: 26
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
Land: Netherlands

Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#86 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Di 15. Jun 2021, 21:29

I recently bought an akra euro 3 but didnt liked the noise compared to the remus(mine is adjusted is some way previeus owner that almost all the gas goes through below pipe) and it sound much deeper.

Yea with ali express stuff its a guess most times its just cheaper to make there so the price is much less, quality most times pritty decent.

I’m definitly going to order the malossi force master but first looking for air/fuel sensor.

Did you used bosch 4.9? And is this plug and play? (Same connection?)

Also made a funnel for the airbox intake hose, the inside radius same as the intake hose so no loss there (picture attached) and smoothen the inside entry of airbox a bit less sharp edge, Felt bit more powerfull but now need the air/fuel sensor to see if its okay.

I’m around 9 sec 0-100 and i weight 65kg, but i guess with the dragy tool would be better becouse the phone acceleration app are not so good or someone has a suggestion?. It says 8 second, when i count myself i got 9, looks like around 9 it is but cant really be sure.

Thanks for reply peter, you already have received the malossi forcemaster? Everywhere it says expect around 4 weeks delivery time.
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GTS-Peter
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#87 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Di 15. Jun 2021, 22:19

Yes, I ordered the Forcemaster3 a while ago but didn't mount it up to now. I have just finished building my HPE engine with the 77mm Polini cylinder and some nice other modifications. Engine is back in the frame since Sunday and the first tests came out with promising results. I'll give the engine a few kilometers before I kick it and then go to look for the right CVT setup.

Trying to adjust the fueling with the Polini module for the moment as it's installed very quickly. Running way to rich on Map2 for euro4 engine! Really way too rich like 0,76-0,82. Engine controls even switched on one time telling lambda is measuring too rich mixture.

As I said, just got the engine back in the frame on Sunday. It definitely needs a few hours for adjusting now.
Ölwanne mit Schauglas für GTS 300 und HPE?

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Rob12395
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Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#88 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Mi 16. Jun 2021, 15:41

Looking forward hearing more about your project peter.

Im very curious about how you connected the bosch lambda, orginal lambda has 4 cable connection and the bosch 4.9 has 6.

Could you share some more about this please?

Bosch
1 Pumping electricity (red)
2 Virtual ground (yellow)
3 Heater clock - (white)
4 Heater clock + U Batt (grey)
5 Trimming potentiometers (green)
6 Nernst voltage (black)

Orginal if im correct
1-2 white (heater)
3 black (signal ecu)
4 grey (ground)

GTS-Peter
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Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#89 Beitrag von GTS-Peter » Mi 16. Jun 2021, 15:43

I welded a second thread to the manifold so I am running two O2 Sensors. The original for the original ECU and the wideband sensor for my FuelTech Nano tool.

The Zeitronix advertises that you can replace the original o2 sensor by the wideband sensor and the Zeitronix computer can be connected to the lambda connector of the original ECU. The Zeitronix computer loops the signal to the Vespa ECU. That's a big benefit. I guess it's worth the money if you don't already have a lambda tool.
Ölwanne mit Schauglas für GTS 300 und HPE?

https://www.buchsenfuchs.com/shop/vespa/

Rob12395
Beiträge: 26
Registriert: Sa 17. Apr 2021, 19:54
Vespa: Gts 300 hpe
Land: Netherlands

Re: Vespa gts 300 hpe tuning diy

#90 Beitrag von Rob12395 » Mi 16. Jun 2021, 18:42

Ah alright, maybe the zeitronix tool it is. Not sure if using it with the malossi forcemaster will stirr things up.

Stefko22 did you used it with a power commander or malossi forcemaster or something?

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